Investment Myths Busted

Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby LenaHuat » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:19 am

OK, not only am I listening "IN", I'm also listening "TO".

Current price $6.92
Total gain if buy and hold from Aug 06 till now $3.02 = 77%
Total gain if buy and sell according to mkt conditions = $12.35 = 317%.


The issue with the above is that most people find it difficult to measure and so feel the pain of 'opportunity foregone'. What they have not seen (317% return) or worked out (again 317%)does not bother them. To them, it's topology that counts. In topology, a donut and a coffee cup with a handle are equivalent shapes, because each has a single hole. It's the hole (resulting from a misstep in 'timing') that bothers them and not the yummy meat or liquid in the cup :!:
Please be forewarned that you are reading a post by an otiose housewife. ImageImage**Image**Image@@ImageImageImage
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby blid2def » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:16 am

millionairemind wrote:Try follow thro' days on Jun 29 2006 (Day 12 of Attempt Rally) and Feb 13 2008 (this was a darn weak follow thro', more than 15 days passed..). There are a couple other days but I cannot seem to remember them now.

If you find any lobangs, PM me brudder.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Haha, thanks! I got lobang I better keep to myself. Most of my lobangs money-losing, dun want to sabo you. Hahaha....
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby la papillion » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:12 am

LenaHuat wrote:OK, not only am I listening "IN", I'm also listening "TO".

Current price $6.92
Total gain if buy and hold from Aug 06 till now $3.02 = 77%
Total gain if buy and sell according to mkt conditions = $12.35 = 317%.


The issue with the above is that most people find it difficult to measure and so feel the pain of 'opportunity foregone'. What they have not seen (317% return) or worked out (again 317%)does not bother them. To them, it's topology that counts. In topology, a donut and a coffee cup with a handle are equivalent shapes, because each has a single hole. It's the hole (resulting from a misstep in 'timing') that bothers them and not the yummy meat or liquid in the cup :!:


Well said well said! How bright the paragraph enlightens!
An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis promises safety of principal and an adequate return - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby millionairemind » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:30 am

Investment Myth No. 2 - It is time in the market, not timing the market that counts

Need I say more???? Y take a stock for a round trip and have nothing to show for it?

Image

The last time I checked, the earnings are still chucking along great...

http://info.sgx.com/webcoranncatth.nsf/ ... penelement
"If a speculator is correct half of the time, he is hitting a good average. Even being right 3 or 4 times out of 10 should yield a person a fortune if he has the sense to cut his losses quickly on the ventures where he has been wrong" - Bernard Baruch

Disclaimer - The author may at times own some of the stocks mentioned in this forum. All discussions are NOT to be construed as buy/sell recommendations. Readers are advised to do their own research and analysis.
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby winston » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:33 am

millionairemind wrote:The last time I checked, the earnings are still chucking along great...


Yes, use a simple Line chart to our advantage...

Let the earnings rise from Left to Right

And the Price to Fall from Left to Right
It's all about "how much you made when you were right" & "how little you lost when you were wrong"
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby millionairemind » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:17 am

Time to bust another investment myth... My Excel damn rusty now.. downloaded Yahoo's data to work on some simple spreadsheet... and Yahoo still got missing data for me to fill in....

Haven't been using Excel functions much for the last 2 years...

Investment Myth No. 7 - You must be in the market all the time.. if you miss the biggest up days.. your returns will be so much lower (blah blah blah)

Academics like to quote this. The FUN industry likes to keep harping on this one.. that is Y they always try to brainwash you to ask you to stay in the market, buy for the long haul kind of BS...and they will tell you that if you miss this date, that date... you are screwed with your returns.

Yes, if you miss the biggest up days.. your returns might be lower... but they forgot to tell you that if you miss the biggest down days, you will still come out ahead... Y? Cos' FEAR is a much stronger emotions than GREED.

I pulled data for STI for the past 1 year and calculated all the gains and losses for the biggest 10 up days as well as down days.

TaDa!!! Here it is.... the 10 biggest up days for the STI in the past year.

Date %tage difference
22/8/2007 2.88
23/7/2008 3.06
29/11/2007 3.22
14/2/2008 3.26
19/9/2007 3.35
8/8/2007 3.37
25/1/2008 3.59
24/3/2008 3.64
23/1/2008 4.08
20/8/2007 6.12
Total 36.56

Now for the biggest down days

Date %tage difference
21/1/2008 -6.02
13/3/2008 -3.85
28/1/2008 -3.75
16/8/2007 -3.70
6/8/2007 -3.70
6/2/2008 -3.50
15/8/2007 -3.35
3/3/2008 -3.30
1/8/2007 -3.27
17/12/2007 -3.25
Total -37.70

Mkt does not go up in a straight line... however, when mkt corrects, it often goes down in a straight line before rebounding...

If you go back and track the BIGGEST 10 day drop in the DOW versus the biggest 10 day rises, you will probably see the same scenario painted. A small difference of 1.2% compounded over a long period of time can lead to a big difference in performance.

A 10%/year appreciation will yield 1745% return over 30 years.

A 11.14%/year appreciation will yield 2377% return over 30 years.
"If a speculator is correct half of the time, he is hitting a good average. Even being right 3 or 4 times out of 10 should yield a person a fortune if he has the sense to cut his losses quickly on the ventures where he has been wrong" - Bernard Baruch

Disclaimer - The author may at times own some of the stocks mentioned in this forum. All discussions are NOT to be construed as buy/sell recommendations. Readers are advised to do their own research and analysis.
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby la papillion » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:14 am

Amazing data you compiled, mm :) great work!
An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis promises safety of principal and an adequate return - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby winston » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:15 am

winston wrote:Investment Rules are Guiding Principles to me. They can be broken and should not be followed blindly. However, when you break a rule, know why you are breaking it and manage your risk accordingly..

Example: Market Direction

1) To a CANSLIM follower, Market Direction is of utmost importance

4) Whenever there is a stock-specific catalyst, I will also bet against the US Market Direction as I feel that my stock specific- catalyst can overcome the headwinds from the US Market Direction, as long as there is not a full fledged crash.


Today is a good example where I bought a stock eventhough the US Market Direction is down and the HSI is down.

Yet Shun Tak is up 3% now. Check out my Shun Tak thread for more details..
It's all about "how much you made when you were right" & "how little you lost when you were wrong"
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby la papillion » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:39 am

I did some study on STI too, not sure what I'm looking for, just fooling around with data
---------------------------------------

While trying to find out more about the compounded returns of investing in STI ETF today, I managed to crunch some numbers for the adjusted close of STI since inception on 28th Dec, 1987 till now. The data that I used comes from Yahoo! finance. Below is the chart (linear y-axis) of STI from inception till last close, on 2nd May 2008.

Image
http://bp3.blogger.com/_3qF-4FCPF1I/SB6 ... stigif.gif

We can see from the STI chart that there are notable periods of time that it dropped sharply. In 1990, 1998, 2003 and 2007, we can see a visual drop in STI. But I think a more appropriate chart to use is a logarithmic y-axis, so that we can better appreciate the change in % of STI.

Image
http://bp2.blogger.com/_3qF-4FCPF1I/SB6 ... ti+log.gif


It's interesting to take note that while the 1990s and 1998 crashes are very severe, the 2007 subprime crisis which is acting out now is a mere blip on the chart. In fact, the subprime crisis is nothing compared to 1998 where the market crashed below inception level. That must be the dot com crisis that plagued US and possibly spilled over to Singapore shores. (I made a mistake, it's not the dot-com, it's the asian financial crisis of 1997-1998)

It's actually very encouraging to see such charts because it gives hopes to investors that while all seems lost, time itself will right the wrong and correct the excesses, hence there is no need to worry about the current crisis if one's holding power is there. But some may argue that STI ultimately is a collection of a number of big caps ranked in market capitalization, so while STI may rise, retail investors investing in smaller pennies might suffer much more than suggested otherwise. There is also the added complication of survivorship bias where those who didn't survive are taken out of STI, hence STI isn't such a good beacon of hope. Well, that's true.

I further compiled a table that shows the compounded annual growth rate for STI taken at different periods of time : 1 yr, 3 yr, 5, 7, 10 to 20 yrs, just to see what sort of returns one might get from holding STI.

Image
http://bp2.blogger.com/_3qF-4FCPF1I/SB6 ... 5_CAGR.gif


One will surely notice that the further one holds, the lesser the chances of having negative returns. The break even year is actually 14-yrs holding period - which means to say a person holding STI for 14 yrs will not have a single year of losses. But of course this comes at a price; holding longer period will ensure less returns but it's safer than say, holding over 1 year period.

Holding STI over a period of 20 years will reward the patient investor with a very safe and compounded returns of around 7%, beating long term SG bonds hands down (SG bonds give only around 4% long term). With the CPF rate pegged to long term SG bond rate, I wonder why investors would not consider a passive and low cost fund like ETF, it's certainly not exciting but it beats most investment out there without the holder needing anything but patience.

-------------------------
There are certain flaws in this argument :) I'll leave it to you to figure out :)
An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis promises safety of principal and an adequate return - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Investment Myths Busted

Postby millionairemind » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:43 am

W,

You huat ar!!!

Well, the purpose of timing the mkt is that most growth stocks (3 OUT OF 4) follow the mkt trend... Apparently, you just found the 4th stock that goes against the market... :D

Bottom line is, investing/trading is a game of probability. If you know that 3 out of 4 growth stocks follow the mkt trend... you will know that there is a 75% probability that the stocks one owns WILL FOLLOW THE MKT LOWER.... so Y be in it when the odds are so overwhelming?

So far, all the stocks I sold on May 22 have followed the mkt lower, ranging from 10% to 30%. Phew!!!

mm
"If a speculator is correct half of the time, he is hitting a good average. Even being right 3 or 4 times out of 10 should yield a person a fortune if he has the sense to cut his losses quickly on the ventures where he has been wrong" - Bernard Baruch

Disclaimer - The author may at times own some of the stocks mentioned in this forum. All discussions are NOT to be construed as buy/sell recommendations. Readers are advised to do their own research and analysis.
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